How should the Army investigate claims of sexual abuse?

We were joined by Mariette Hughes, who is the Complaints Ombudsman for the Armed Forces and who oversees the complaints process for men and women in the UK’s military.

And Emma Norton, solicitor for Jaysley Beck’s family, who has also set up the Centre for Military Justice.

Cathy Newman: Emma Norton first, how widespread within the forces do you think is the kind of sexual assault and harassment that Jaysley experienced?

Emma Norton: I think it’s pretty widespread. We know that almost 90% of people in the armed forces that experience bullying, harassment or discrimination don’t even make a complaint about it. It is a real hidden, it’s a terrible, terrible thing. And the kinds of experiences that Jaysley was describing to her family are unfortunately incredibly familiar to us at the Centre for Military Justice. A culture of disbelief, constantly being told, think of the impact on him if you go ahead and make this complaint. A widespread ignorance amongst the chain of command as to how they’re supposed to support women who report sexual assaults, and all sorts of problems with military policing. So I’m afraid the kinds of experiences, that clients that contact us, thankfully they don’t usually lead to this kind of catastrophic outcome, but they are all too familiar. And lots of the women that come to us for help describe feeling completely despondent, completely overwhelmed at a process which they have no faith in because it completely lacks independence.

Cathy Newman: I’ll come back to that in just a second. But Mariette Hughes, do you endorse that, that this kind of behaviour in the army, this treatment of women, is pretty widespread? When you look at all the complaints that have been coming out on social media anonymously, that does suggest it’s pretty prevalent, doesn’t it?

Mariette Hughes: Absolutely. We do know that a number of people report that they’ve been subject to behaviour such as bullying, harassment and discrimination. The armed forces continuous attitude survey tells us it’s as much as 12% in the last 12 months. And as Emma has mentioned, only one in eight of those individuals go on to raise a complaint. What we’re seeing, particularly now in the outpouring on social media of individuals sharing their stories, is that historically, the scale and breadth of this issue has widely been misunderstood.

Cathy Newman: Emma, you talked about, you know, how complaints are handled. Does the army now, has it lost the right to adjudicate these complaints itself? Should there be an external body handling all of these complaints now, in your view?

“We know that almost 90% of people in the armed forces that experience bullying, harassment or discrimination don’t even make a complaint about it.”
– Emma Norton

Emma Norton: Absolutely there should be. And this has been being called for for years now. So in 2019, there was an independent review by Air Chief Marshal Michael Wigston. He recommended the creation of what he called a central defence authority that would sit outside of the single services. So we’re not saying it’s got to be completely ex-MoD at this stage, just outside the single services would be something. And that would have a number of functions. But one of the things it would do, it would take the most serious complaints. We’re not saying all of them, but the most serious ones, ones that the kind of complaint that Jaysley should have brought if she’d had the confidence and the support to do so. They should be taken away from the single services themselves because they unfortunately have shown that they cannot be trusted to deal with them themselves. They will tell you that they have brought in all of these changes. There are some changes, but they are often massively overstated in the extent of those changes. They are presented as independent when they are not. All they’ve done is remove the chain of command from some of those investigations. That is not independent.

Cathy Newman: They also say they’ve introduced anonymous hotlines. Is that progress?

Emma Norton: It always had an anonymous hotline. For many, many years, they had it in the army. All they did in 2022 was extend it to the other services. So again, that’s another nice smoke and mirrors point. And the problem with the hotline is it doesn’t refer you externally, it just refers you back in to the chain of command. It tells you about how to make a service complaint. It doesn’t get you outside of the services.

Cathy Newman: Mariette, do you agree that the time is now for an independent, in some capacity as Emma has just described, way of handling these complaints?

Mariette Hughes: It’s a difficult one for me and it is a decision for the Ministry of Defence to make. Primarily, I do believe that service complaints themselves should be handled internally by the services. The service complaint system is a replacement for a workplace grievance system and as with any employer, you would want your employer to be able to see what’s gone wrong and show dedication and commitment to fixing that themselves.

Cathy Newman: Haven’t they lost the right to do that by the way they’ve handled this complaint and others and the fact that women don’t have confidence in coming forward and making these complaints.

Mariette Hughes: I think the issue with previous complaints is that people don’t have that confidence to come forward. And as has been alluded to, there have been a number of very positive changes that mean individuals can submit their complaints outside of the chain of command and directly to a centralised admissibility service. My key concern is the individuals who still don’t feel able to speak up, because regardless of who is investigating the complaint, there is still a very real fear that however that complaint is investigated, it will get back to the unit. That people will be marked out as being troublemakers for having had that courage to speak up.

Cathy Newman: Right. But you don’t think there should be a kind of independent body handling this. Emma, what’s your response to that?
Emma Norton: Incredibly disappointing. It’s incredibly disappointing because what happens is what happened to Jaysley. The pressure is on them to undertake informal resolution. That is exactly what happened to her. And it has long been possible for service personnel to make a complaint outside of the chain of command. They’ve for many, many years, they’ve been able to do it via Mariette’s office. And it’s always been the case that where your chain of command was directly implicated, the assumption was that they wouldn’t be involved. That is not the problem here. The problem is the army are not able to investigate this for themselves. There is an institutional inbuilt tendency to disbelieve women and to leave them in desperate situations, and as a result, they have no faith. So it seems to me there is no alternative now. They’re going to have to try this.

“There is still a very real fear that however that complaint is investigated, it will get back to the unit. That people will be marked out as being troublemakers for having had that courage to speak up.”
– Mariette Hughes

Cathy Newman: Should the police now be called in to investigate these two men, one of whom appears to still be in the army, Mariette?

Mariette Hughes: Unfortunately not my place to say. I think it is very disappointing that one of them is still in the armed forces, as it is very clear that that behaviour has no place. And had the army dealt with this correctly in the first place, I would have expected to see much stronger action being taken.

Cathy Newman: I mean, it sort of beggars belief that he’s still in the army, isn’t it?

Mariette Hughes: It does, yes.

Cathy Newman: Emma, should the police be called in?

Emma Norton: The family would like to see that, yes. And I think they wouldn’t want us to comment further on that in case they do. But I think it’s really important to note that he was promoted after this happened. He was promoted. And it was only after Jaysley died when the army thought, oh my God, we’re going to be asked some really difficult questions here. And he was actually promoted and he was put in a soldier-facing role. It was only after she died, not after she reported the sexual assault, after she died, that he was taken out of that soldier-facing role. And he announced at the inquest that he’s leaving the army in the spring, but it’s on his own volition, so this is his own request.

Cathy Newman: This is Michael Webber you’re talking about.

Emma Norton: I am. He’s not being forced out. So, I mean, what else can you say to them?

Watch more here:

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